Thursday, January 10, 2019

Tigers Trade Josh Williams to Edmonton

Links
http://whl.ca/article/williams-kemp-swap-places-as-tigers-oil-kings-strike-deal
http://tigershockey.com/article/tigers-swap-williams-for-kemp
https://chatnewstoday.ca/article/585999/tigers-trade-williams-oil-kings







Requested A Trade?
Williams is only 17 so this means he must have requested a trade?
(See the comment section this might be incorrect)

So apparently 17's can be traded they just need to drop their no-trade clauses if they have one.

TigerTurf Thoughts
Completely unexpected, but I think I like the return for a couple of reasons...

This is a bit ironic but I was thinking the other day that Williams is falling in the draft rankings. He has been more of an individual perimeter player that is fairly good at protecting the puck but doesn't have enough experience yet to translate that into creating dangerous offensive chances and beating Dmen one on one.

I was thinking he is an "in between"  kind of prospect. Someone who was clearly ahead of the competition when he was younger, but also someone who needs some time for his potential to come out at a higher level. In terms of the NHL draft, I was placing him more of a 3rd/4th round type of prospect.

I do think he will be a really good player and I'm interested to see on what line he will play on in Edmonton.  I could easily see Williams putting up a lot of points and boosting his stock if he can start feeding passes to elite players because he can protect the puck very well.

Why This Could Be Good
With a potential up season next year, I feel the Tigers needed a bit more oomph in terms of goal scoring into their lineup. If Williams is a bit of a slow developer, Kemp will fit the bill coming into his 19yr old year.

 Kemp has shown he can be a goal scorer.  0.51PPG as a 17, and 0.98 PPG as an 18. Kemp was also used on the powerplay in Edmonton. He is also fairly calm and poised around the net. If there is a knock on him it's his consistency in playing hard every night.

Why This is Good For Edmonton
They are not a team to throw trades into the wind at random.  They have done a great job lately at getting long term value for their deals.

They look to be building around their group of 2000's and 2001's. In other words, they should be very strong the year after the Tigers strong season.

Next year they may see a bit of a transition with a lot of offence gone. This helps them retain a good player and build around that age group.



Lost Playing Years
This is a hidden stat that is probably the most under-rated and most overlooked among hockey fans.
This deal, in particular, is the type of deal the Tigers hardly ever make. They gave up a potential playing year as Williams is 1 year younger than Kemp. It means 1 less potential year of production from a good player.

This is why the Tigers usually never have a poor year, because they always keep playing years in mind. Whereas why Lethbridge was soo bad for so many years because they leaked playing years on every deal they made.

Now Williams will likely get drafted, and if he finds his game their is more risk he doesn't come back as a 20. With Brett Kemp, he went undrafted so there is the higher potential that he will be here as a 20.  Things can change of course.

Overall
The Tigers Immediately get better. Their powerplay gets better. They get someone who will be able to jump into a top 6 role right away. He will become the 3rd 20 goal scorer the Tigers will have this season.

I am a bit surprised the Tigers didn't go get more forward insurance. Cole Sillinger will likely immediately join the Tigers as soon as his minor league team is finished the season. (End of February) Playoffs go until End of March. I do not know the legislation around calling up 15yr olds should an emergency be required.

I think they could potentially callup Nick McCarry if needed as he is playing in the AJHL.

44 comments:

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Williams to Edm for Kemp

January 10, 2019 at 2:31 PM Delete

TigerTurf said...

Anonymous said...
Clouston will not trade either goalies...he has shown in the past he likes two viable options. THEY WILL NOT BE MOVED!!!

January 10, 2019 at 2:32 PM Delete

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
I don't understand, I'm really surprised by trading Williams. I understand that he hasn't looked like a 1st round NHL pick like many scouts were predicting but there's room to grow. Why trade him for an older player without as much upside. Only way it makes sense is if Williams wanted out, still why not get more pieces for the future?

January 10, 2019 at 3:43 PM Delete

Anonymous said...

Anonymous longtimefan said...
For clarification, Josh Williams did not ask to be traded.

January 10, 2019 at 5:26 PM Delete

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
2016 WHL draft and we have 5 picks in the first 3 rounds. We sign them all and this is going to be a year we build around. Three of these (Rybinski,Price and Williams)ask to be traded. Fedyck dropped from the list. Only Baker is left. Good job Tigers.

January 10, 2019 at 4:30 PM Delete

TigerTurf said...

I don't understand how Williams could be traded otherwise?

What is the loophole that exists that allows a 17yr old to be moved?

TigerTurf said...

Anon - That translates into Daniel Baker, Aiden Brook, Kemp 2nd 2019, 3rd in 2020, 5th

It's way too early to judge that draft year.

longtimefan said...

The rule is, and I got this from a billet family, a)the player must request the trade or b) the player must waive his no trade clause which apparently happened in this case.

CatFan said...

I have been disappointed in William's play this year. I really thought he would be a star player for us, and that just hasn't happened. Maybe he will be better in Edmonton, maybe not. He just doesn't seem to work as hard as he should.

Libertarian said...

If the Clouston did this trade out of request then fine. But if this was done for any other reason then I view this as a failure. If Clouston has decided to sell the farm for next year then there had better be more moves in particular...SIZE UP FRONT! It was way too early to give up on William's...

Anonymous said...

Tigers got better from this trade for the rest of this season and next. Not much to complain about really.

Assuming Hamblin and Prezuiso are back as 20s, they will have a nice group of 19s at forward behind them with Kemp, Chyzowski, Lockner, Brown and Anderson. Would have been nice to include Rybinski in that group as well, but he apparently wasn't interested in being the 3rd line C for this season and next.

The D wont likely have a "star" per se, but should be balanced and deep.

Goaltending should be set as well.

Assuming Hollett goes pro or gets traded, they will have another spot for a 20, so they could keep Ostir as well up front, or deal for a 20 year old Dman.

They will also have an open Euro spot with Nassen gone.

Bottom line, while the team right now isn't a powerhouse, they should give fits to whoever they play in round 1, and next year they will probably be challengers for 1st in the division.



Anonymous said...

This might go down as being one of the worst trades in Tigers history. What some of you are forgetting is that Williams is still only 17 years old.The kid was tied for 2nd in goals at the HLINKA GRETZKY CUP.The reason he did so well in that tournament is that he was playing with other skilled players.The Tigers lack skilled players and that's why he has struggled to break out this year.During the preseason Williams and Sillinger looked dynamic together and I was really looking forward to seeing those 2 play together next year.Had Clouston just been a little more patient we would have seen Williams breakout next year in a BIG way.There is a reason why Williams is ranked in the second round for the upcoming NHL draft and why he was invited to the Top Prospect game.The Tigers get back a kid that was never drafted by a NHL team and has scored 10 more goals this year while being a full year older WHOOPIE.Just wait Williams in his 18 year old season will outscore Kemp by a fair margin.Now that Williams is getting a chance to play with some skill in Edmonton (Jake Neighbours/Trey Fix-Wolansky/Matthew Robertson) you will all see just how good he really can be.I really wouldn't doubt if Williams and his agent did ask for a trade. They know his skill is being hidden due to Cloustons poor coaching and the lack of skill around him.It sure is funny when you look at Gary Haden's stats since being traded to Saskatoon. 32pts in 30 games hmmmmmm another example of a skilled player being held back by Clouston's poor coaching.How many more kids need to ask for trades out of town before they realize that Clouston's my way or the highway approach is absolutely killing this franchise.Kemp is going to struggle in the Hat just like Williams did, his points will drop and fans will soon realize that we got absolutely taken to the cleaners in this deal.Could Clouston not have at least got a high draft pick back with Kemp to balance things out a little bit? Williams has way more upside then the soon to be 19 year old Kemp so there definitely should have been more to this deal.If Clouston made this trade to try and save this season due to injuries to Ostir and Chyzowski he made a BIG mistake.The Tigers arnt beating the Raiders this year anyways so stick with the program. If you miss the playoffs because of a couple key injuries not a big deal at least fans could look at the future and be optimistic.In closing I must say Iam very disappointed by this trade,the Oil Kings got an incredible player yesterday and they are going to be a very good team for the next few years because of it.

Anonymous said...

What people need to realize is that kemp may be a year older but he should also be in the league as a 20 year old. Williams will be in the AHL at 20 most likely. This trade is surrounded by what ifs. If Williams turns it around clouston looks stupid. If he doesn’t live up to his potential clouston looks smart. I’m not saying we won or lost this trade but I will say it certainly is a bit risky. I thought we maybe should have got a lower draft pick back as well.

Anonymous said...

Replying to the person who is only actually got a hate on for the coach. Do you actually watch the games? I will agree that Williams could turn out but at this point it really is not happening. The Tigers drafted him 5th overall. I'm not sure who the head scout was at that time, Brad Mcuen or Darren Kruger, but all you have to do is look at the players that went after him like Couzins, Robertson, Mutala, Korczak, etc to know that maybe they didn't do a good job of drafting.
It looks to me as a loyal fan that maybe they are trying to continue to be competitive in the Central Division as it has got a lot stronger. I agree with the poster who said that maybe they are both good players. And let's see what happens.
I thought it was announced that they got a pick also on the WHL site?

Anonymous said...

If they were both good players they would both be drafted by NHL teams (Williams soon will be) and both would have played in the Top prospect game.Last time I checked only one of them has those credentials.One year can make a big difference in development.Just because Williams isn’t lighting it up this year doesn’t mean you give up on the guy.I still think Williams will go to Edmonton and start lighting it up just like Haden is doing in Saskatoon.We trade away these kids and they instantly turn it around and become players in this league go figure.

Anonymous said...

Trading a guy who came into the year as a near lock to be a first round NHL pick for a guy who brings in his lunch bucket to the rink every day. Another day in the Clouston led Reign of Mediocrity.

Anonymous said...

As for the comment Williams will most likely be playing in the AHL at 20.That would mean you would still have Williams for 2 seasons (18 and 19).I much rather have a AHL player for 2 years then Kemp (19 and 20) for 2 years.We are comparing a projected 2nd round NHL pick to a player that was completely passed over in the NHL draft last year.They arnt on the same level at all.NHL scouts are legit and know a player when they see one, Clouston on the other had well lets not go there.

Joe Bachmier said...

Funny how Williams excelled at Hlinka and came to Med Hat and everything went south. And don't tell me he was good at Hlinka because of his linemates. That's just dumb. His Hlinka performance had him listed as a late first rounder by a number of well known hockey people including several well known draft blogs.

longtimefan said...

I to am disappointed they gave up on Williams in his 17 year old season. To me this has the possibility of blowing up in their faces if Josh turns into the goal scorer most scouts predicted he would eventually become when he was drafted. If he learns to do the one thing that good scorers do, the ability to find open ice, then this trade could be a disaster in the end. They got a decent player in return but the ceiling for Williams is certainly higher. I'm also flabbergasted that this was a one for one deal with no pick involved coming this way.

The thing that bugs me the most about this is there doesn't seem to be any long term plan to build a championship team here. Ownership and management seem content to make the playoffs, get a round or two and all is good. This trade was made for the simple reason they feel Kemp gives them a better chance than Williams to make this years playoffs. That's not the way to go about your business in my view and by the looks of the stands this year I'm not the only one that feels that way.

Anonymous said...

Williams has had numerous chances to turn his season around here. He’s got to play with decent linemeates at times. As far as I’m concerned it’s on him for not being able to turn his year around. I’m sure he will go on to be a great player in this league but from what I’ve seen he might not even go in the top two rounds. Coaching plays a part in players success but clouston isn’t the one playing the game. Williams is the guy on the ice that needs to make the improvements.

Anonymous said...

They had a team two seasons ago that was 2nd in the WHL regular season and a powerhouse offensively. They just ran into an opportunistic Hurricane team with a goalie who could steal games in round two.

That team was every bit good enough to win it all, but sometimes in sports things just don't go your way and they lost in game 7 OT.

The team next year is shaping up to be very strong once again, yet in the two "down" or "rebuilding" years they still have an above average team who plays playoff games.

Yet people complain haha. It's pretty comical really.

TigerTurf said...

@anon 9:41


I don't want to discredit your thoughts because they are valid....but here are some of my thoughts...

The reality is that all players develop at a different rate. Williams was one of the top skilled guys at that 2016 draft.

Williams development has been on a completely average and normal curve so far. Because his initial skill set was much higher than average he is still ahead of the game...
----


We don't ultimately know when a player will breakout. Some players never do, some breakout at 19-20 like Mark Rassell. Some find their game after a trade

Williams hasn't shown signs he's ready to break out with the Tigers either. I'd make a case that his game was stagnating and that his positioning at the NHL draft was falling by the game and this trade is probably the best thing for him.

This trade could very well be the thing that bumps Wiliams off that stagnation platform. It could be the very trade that brings more passion and fight into his game that sets his career on a different path...a catch 22 for the Tigers indeed...but what would happen if he stagnated here for a couple more seasons?


Receiving a player that will boost the offense this season and next compared to a stagnating player with potential, will still boost the Tigers value in the long-run.
---

If the Tigers were not planning on having an up season next year, this trade would be Ill-advised as Williams potential would far outweigh anything else.



Anonymous said...

Clouston is that you??This conversation isn't about what they did in the playoffs 2 years ago.Its about poor asset management and the fact they traded a player with NHL potential for a player that was passed over by NHL teams.Looking forward to another first round exit this year!!!Bring back Willy!!!

Anonymous said...

We will see how stagnant Williams really is.My prediction is he goes on an absolute tear the rest of the season and we are left scratching our heads as to why he couldn't do that in the Hat.There is one reason why and Iam pretty sure we all know what that reason is.I will give you a hint it starts with a C.

Anonymous said...

The conversation always ends up with somebody complaining that the Tigers under Clouston never build a powerhouse, when in fact they have.

Anonymous said...

WHL trade rules are that to trade a signed 17 year old player he has to ask to be traded. The team cannot ask the player to accept a trade. In other words Williams was yet another player who wanted out of here. A change in GM and Coach is overdue. Being happy with average year after year has gotten old. Sometimes a change just needs to happen. You may take a step back at first but if you have a plan to succeed you will. We will never really do that with Clouston

Anonymous said...

I would like to point out that Brett Leason wasn't drafted either and how did that turn out for PA?

Anonymous said...

Most jr hockey fans attend games for two reasons:

To see a team get built into a champion or at least be a solid organization.
To see players get developed, drafted and at least, occasionally, become NHLers

Since getting the HC job after Willie left, I will give Clouston credit for building one good team. So, on the first point, he does get some cache. Still, they didn't win anything and so far, it's a one off.

But it's how he builds his teams that get me pis---. An over-reliance on older, slightly above average WHLers who generally have no real future as professionals. This is not what I want to watch. At least not year-after-year. Same type of older, smallish forwards like Hamblin, Jevne etc etc who are decent to good WHLers. There the type of players you'd never buy a ticket just to go see as they progress in their development. Players like Cozens, Leason, Dach and maybe even Josh Williams at some point in the future.

They are also not the type of players that will carry a team throughout the playoffs. Too small, too much perimeter play too much getting knocked off pucks as the year progresses. More skilled, bigger teams seem to easily dispatch the Tigers in the playoffs.

Also, people talk about him being, at best, an average coach and I agree with that. But what nobody talks about is that he is also an average GM. He rarely drafts elite players and when he does, they generally ask for a trade or get traded because they are underachieving.

Clouston has failed to build a good organization, it's a mediocre one. And he does not have the ability to draft or develop (coach) elite talent.

That's what Clouston brings every year. Be the same this year. Same next year. Groundhog Clouston.

Anonymous said...

Just to clarify one point in 7:27 post,

Should have read:
Players like Cozens, Leason, Dach and maybe even Josh Williams at some point in the future. Those are players people buy tickets to go see.

Anonymous said...

Annon 6:53...
Either 17 year olds have to request or accept a trade. Edmonton wasn't the only team trying to get Williams from the Tigers. Based on his current development in the Hat, I think this trade was best for him and the organization. It just wasn't working

Anonymous said...

Williams didn’t ask for a trade. He waived his no trade clause. Big Big difference.

longtimefan said...

For the umpteenth time, JOSH WILLIAMS DID NOT ASK FOR A TRADE? As explained before there are two ways a 17 year old can be traded 1) they initiate the trade request and 2) they waive the no trade clause which allows the team to deal him. Number 2 is what happened in this case.

Anonymous said...

Maybe do some research. Teams cannot make the first move with a 17 year old. The 17 year old must ask for a trade before the team can make a move.

There obviously was concern at the league level. In May, WHL commissioner Ron Robison told Brandon Rivers of dubnetwork.ca:

“We are looking at that very seriously. We were concerned about the level of trade activity this year. We will be coming out soon with a decision. We want to make sure that these players are not concerned about that at that age and we are focusing on restricting moving players at a younger age.”

Taking Note has been told that the league has decided that its teams won’t be allowed to trade any 15- or 16-year-old players who have signed WHL contracts. On top of that, the only time the trading of a 17-year-old player will be allowed is if that player has requested a trade.

The 17-year-old player will have had to approach the team’s general manager to ask for a trade; a team won’t be able to make the first move, asking said player to waive his no-trade clause. Taking Note was told that the WHL will approach a 17-year-old player’s parents to make sure the procedure was followed.

longtimefan said...

Anon11:50, your half right, you're missing the other half. I'm 100% correct and I have done my research.

Anonymous said...

Half right?

The 17-year-old player will have had to approach the team’s general manager to ask for a trade; a team won’t be able to make the first move, asking said player to waive his no-trade clause. Taking Note was told that the WHL will approach a 17-year-old player’s parents to make sure the procedure was followed.

That sentence voids your whole point..

Anonymous said...

I know the league realessed that statement but they made a mistake in their description. Longtime fan is correct and it’s been proven multiple times. I’ve heard other gms talk about it. I’m not sure if it’s just this season but 17 year olds can be moved and all they have to do is accept the deal. The player does not have to go to the team first.

longtimefan said...

Your right anon 12:14. There have been multiple trades with 17 year olds being moved. one example, the red deer Kootenay trade a while back. The players red deer moved fell into the same category and both waived the no trade clause.

Anonymous said...

I feel there is massive confusion on the rule. Found this from Alan C on WHL forums

Alan__C
Aug 28 '18 #5

Only applies if the player has a no-trade in his WHL deal. Basically the new rule prohibits teams from approaching 16 & 17 year olds about waiving their no-trade clauses if they have them. That is all. If you didn't get one in your contract, they can still trade you as before. Which makes sense.

I am given to understand that most players have no-trade protection. Certainly the top prospects and high draft picks have the leverage to request one and get it. The late round picks who are just happy to be given a shot at the Dub, maybe not as many of them get one because they don't have much leverage there.

I wonder if the new rule will make teams stingier about giving them out....since if you don't give a kid one, you can still trade him at the deadline if you're loading up.

I guess it depends on how much we research and how much we dig up from the poorly updated whl rule book haha..

Either way being a past Billet of about 6 years, I sometimes hate how people drop the “heard from
A billet” as far as I can remember players do talk at home. And being a billet family we didn’t say a word outside of the house. Then again this was back in the early 2000’s with less methods to spread news.

And with the new findings I apologize for telling you to do your research.

longtimefan said...

Actually I approached the billet (not his) and asked them about the rule about trading 17 year olds and they explained it to me. I asked and they answered, really don't see a problem with that.

TigerTurf said...

I believe longtimefan is right.

Boston Bilous was 17 and traded from Edmonton to Prince Albert.
Bryce Bader went from Calgary to PA (also 17)
Tyson Feist went from Spokane to Regina (17)


There is nothing in the news about those players demanding trades. It was poor communication by the whl to the fans on some of the more recent rules changes this year.

Anonymous said...

What was the Canalta Centre game attendance in Jan 11th Tigers vs Pats?

CatFan said...

For some reason the attendance for that game wasn't listed on the WHL site. However last night's game on a Saturday night against a division rival was 2983. Pretty pathetic.

TigerTurf said...

Seems like 2700-3100 is the new normal. We are so used to seeing 4006, but 1000 of those were just being eaten by the fans every year in the old arena.
------



New Guy Kemp
Very patient and controlled with the puck which I like. Lets the defender make the mistake if they aren't aggressive enough or too aggressive.

Skating does look relatively average and slightly below average defensively. Shot placement and accuracy also looks pretty high caliber.

Both games he played he had good chances to score.








Anonymous said...

I’m terms of kemp I really like his patience. He’s so calm (almost too calm). He’s going to help bring a lot of offence.
Would like to see his compete level be a little higher but first impressions were pretty good.